Germany: Dec. 15, 2001
Shri Shrimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja
[After Shrila Narayana Maharaja's lecture, called 'Final Proof: The Jiva Did Not Fall', appeared on the Internet, many devotees wrote and inquired for further understanding, and some disagreed with those sastric conclusions. As a reply to all those sincere inquiries, the following lecture by Shrila Maharaja, given two months earlier, is herein presented. On one hand, as explained herein, we cannot understand the origin of the jiva by words alone. Still, the following is an offering of further assistance.]
[Shripad Bhakti Sara Maharaja reads from Jaiva Dharma:] "Sannyasi Maharaja said, 'Prabhu, I want to understand this topic very clearly.'"
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] He very humbly said, "Prabhu, I want to know all these truths." When he said, 'to know', he meant, 'I want to realize something. I am not satisfied by the (mayavada) tattva I have been practicing. I want to be satisfied."
We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.
By doing bhajana, by daily chanting Hare Krsna and hearing hari-katha in the correct process, with very strong belief, then, according to your advancement in bhajana, you can realize all the truths regarding this world and that absolute transcendental world. Logic will not satisfy you. One logical argument will defeat all other arguments, and then another logical argument will come and defeat all the previous arguments. Mundane logic and argument have no existence in the spiritual world.
svatah siddho vedo hari dayita vedhah prabhrtitah
pramanam sat praptam pramiti visayan tan nava vidhan
tatha pratyaksadi pramiti sahitam sadhayati nah
na yuktis tarkakhya pravisati tatha sakti rahita
"The self evident Vedas, which has been received in the sampradaya through guru parampara by recipients of Shri Hari's mercy, such as Brahmaji and others, are known as amnaya-vakya. The nine prayema tattvas are established by those amnaya-vakyas with the help of the other sastras, along with different types of evidence such as direct sense perception (pratyaksa), inasmuch as thy confirm the Vedic version. Reasoning that is only based on logic is always crippled when evaluating inconceivable subject matters, since logic and argument have no access in the realm of the inconceivable." (Dasamula 1)
acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet
prakrtibhyah param yac ca tad acintyasya laksanam
"All transcendental tattvas are beyond material nature, and are therefore inconceivable. Dry arguments are within the jurisdiction of material nature, so they can only be applied in mundane subject matters. They cannot even come close to transcendental tattvas, what to speak of grasping them. As far as inconceivable conceptions are concerned, the application of dry arguments is undesirable and useless." (Mahabharata, Bhisma parva 5.22)
[Shripad Bhakti Sara Maharaja reads from Jaiva Dharma:] "Babaji Mahasaya replied, 'Shrila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, who was an object of the mercy of Shri Nityananda Prabhu, showed me a manuscript that he had written with his own hand. Shriman Mahaprabhu has instructed us on this subject in the book named Shri Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 20.108) as follows:
jivera 'svarupa' haya - krsnera 'nitya-dasa'
krsnera 'tatastha-sakti', 'bhedabheda-prakasa'
"The constitutional nature of the jiva is to be an eternal servant of Shri Krsna. He is the marginal potency of Krsna, and is a manifestation simultaneously one with Him and different from Him.
krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha
ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha
"The jiva who has forgotten Krsna has been preoccupied with the external potency since time without beginning. Consequently, Krsna's illusory potency (maya) gives him misery in the form of material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Can you explain the meaning of 'krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha'?
[Syamarani dasi]: Caitanya Mahaprabhu is speaking to Shri Sanatana Gosvami about the nature of the jiva. 'Sei jiva' - that jiva who has forgotten Krsna since the beginning of time. 'Anadi-bahirmukha.' Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained to Sanatana Gosvami that there are two kinds of jivas, (1) the unmukha (liberated) jiva who is eternally engaged in his service in the spiritual world, and (2) the bahirmukha (conditioned) jiva who has turned his face against the Lord, who is different from that eternally liberated soul.
The conditioned jiva, who has never been in the spiritual world, is a product of the tatastha-sakti. He has emanated from there, and when given the choice by Lord Maha Visnu, he was attracted to the material nature. 'Sei jiva' - only that jiva, being attracted by the illusory energy, is being given all kinds of miseries in the form of material existence by that illusory energy.
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] But why has it been said, 'krsna bhuli'? Does it mean that initially the jiva was remembering and serving Krsna in the spiritual world, but after sometime he forgot Him and fell down?
[Shripad Asrama Maharaja:] One may say that this statement 'krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha' means that the jiva has forgotten Krsna and came to this material world.
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] But Shrila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka. What is the harm of saying that the jivas were in Goloka and then they made some mistakes and fell down to this material world?
[Shripad Asrama Maharaja:] It's explained in Bhagavad-gita:
janma karma ca me divyam
evam yo vetti tattvatah
tyaktva deham punar janma
naiti mam eti so 'rjuna
"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg 4.9)
In the spiritual world there is svarupa-sakti, but there is no influence of maya-sakti. What to speak of the spiritual world, Mayadevi cannot even go to the Viraja River, the dividing line between the spiritual world and material world.1
There is no question of ignorance in the spiritual world. There the jivas are in their svarupa, transcendental forms, and there is no question of them forgetting their relationship with the Lord and falling onto this material world. Sastra states that they are not aware of this material world.
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] If the jivas fell from there, there would be no use of doing so much sadhana and bhajana. If you do bhajana and go to the spiritual world, and then you come to the material world - what is the use of doing bhajana? It is better to stay here. If that jiva falls down from Goloka Vrndavana, it would mean that maya also exists in Goloka Vrndavana. There are no words and no language to explain this. By the influence of maya there is a certain vocabulary here, and we use certain words, but you will have to purify your understanding of those words by sadhana-bhajana. You cannot understand by words alone, because mundane language does not reach beyond matter. Still, even though there is some impurity and defect, sastra will have to use this mundane language to give an idea.
[Shripad Madhava Maharaja:] We have heard from our guru-parampara and we have seen in the scriptures:
na tad bhasayate suryo
na sasanko na pavakah
yad gatva na nivartante
tad dhama paramam mama
["That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (BG 15.6)]
After going to the spiritual world, the eternal abode of Krsna, one will never come back to this material world. All jivas are doing sadhana-bhajana to attain the service of the Divine Couple. We should try our level best to go back to Godhead. If, after going there the jiva is falling down, then what is the use of doing sadhana-bhajana? Moreover, if they don't fall down, what to say about jivas who are the eternal associates of Krsna, such as sakhas like Subala, Shridama, and Madhumangala; parents like Nanda Baba and Yasoda Maiya; and all gopis, especially Shrimati Radhika. It is not possible for them to fall down from there.
Shrila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura use the words 'krsna bhuli' only to give us an idea, and to make us understand. It is like sakha-candra nyaya-the logic of the moon on a branch. We have to understand through our guru-parampara; and then we can understand properly. If we try to understand through the speculation of mind or by our mental exercise, we cannot understand. We have to surrender ourselves to lotus feet of Gurudeva.
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] There are very deep meanings in all the slokas of Shrimad Bhagavatam, and they need to be explained. These slokas state that no one can fall from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha to this material world. Jaya and Vijaya wanted to please their Prabhu Narayana because He wanted to taste vira-rasa, and it was for this reason that Narayana attracted the four Kumaras to come to see Him in Vaikuntha. Neither anger, nor lust, nor any bad qualities are present in Vaikuntha, but Narayana inspired Yogamaya to make them angry. They became angry and cursed Jaya and Vijaya, and when they repented just after doing so, Narayana told them, "Don't be worried. I wanted this. Jaya and Vijaya will go to the material world for three lifetimes in their manifestation forms and, at the same time, they will remain in the spiritual world in their original forms. I will perform pastimes of vira-rasa with them in the material world."
Citraketu Maharaja was in the same position, and Bharata Maharaja, who was in the position of rati (bhava-bhakti), never fell. These devotees performed pastimes of 'falling down' only to give lessons to jivas like us.
Similarly, Narada Muni also performed a pastime in which he appeared to have he become bewildered. He once conquered Kamadeva, Cupid, and after that he proudly thought, "Even my Guru, Sankara, ran after Maya. When he saw Mohini, having forgotten that it was Krsna who had become Mohini, he became like a madman and ran after 'Her.' His deerskin fell off as he ran, and he kept running even though he had become naked. Parvati came and asked him, 'What are you doing?!' but he remained unaware of her presence and continued running after Mohini. But Kamadeva (Cupid) came to me, and he could not do anything."
Narada then went to Sankara and told him, "I have conquered Kamadeva," then he went to Brahma told him the same thing, and then he went to Lord Narayana and told Him the same. Narayana saw that false ego, like a disease, had now come to Narada, and He thought, "I will remove this disease by an operation. His disease is like piles, and he will not be cured of it without My performing an operation." He replied to Narada, "You are My best devotee. I'm very proud of you."
Later, as Narada was returning to this universe, he saw a very, very beautiful kingdom, and he saw a king and his only daughter. That girl was extremely lovely and, in wonder, Narada considered that he had never seen such beauty before. He went to the king and said, "I want to see her future." He then took the hand of that princess in his, and thought, "How can I marry this girl?" After seeing her hand, he went away and began to meditate on his Prabhu, Lord Narayana. Narayana at once appeared in his meditation and asked, "What do you want?" Narada prayed, "O, please help me. I want to marry that girl. Please give me a form which is as beautiful as Yours." Narayana replied, "All auspisciousness to you. All benedictions to you. I will do what is best for you."
Narada now thought that Narayana had fulfilled his desires and given him a form similar to His own, with a very beautiful face, and he was satisfied. He returned to the King, and at that time that girl was having a svayambhava ceremony, the function in which a princess chooses her husband. She took a very beautiful garland and she was preparing to garland to the man who most attracted her, after which they would be married. Narada kept walking wherever that girl walked, showing his face to her and hoping she would give him the garland. Although she looked disgusted and went to another place whenever she looked at him, Narada still followed her everywhere to attract her attention. In the meantime, one of the associates of Sankara told him, "Oh, you are so beautiful." Narada thought the associate of Sankara was telling the truth, but actually he was joking and ridiculing him. In the meantime, Lord Narayana Himself came to that place on Garuda, and when the girl saw Him, she put the garland around His neck. Then, without a minute's delay, Narayana took her on His lap, on Garuda, and quickly flew away.
Narada thought, "He is a very wicked person. I have served Him without any desire. Only this once did I have a desire. I wanted to marry this girl, and I asked for His beautiful face. I should see what face I have." Narada saw in a mirror, or in water, that he had the face of a black Indian monkey, like a baboon - and he became completely disturbed. He at once flew to Vaikuntha, and there he saw that very girl sitting where Laksmi usually sits. Narada then told Narayana, "You have cheated me. I curse You that You will weep, as I am weeping for this lady." In the meantime Narayana took away His maya, and Narada saw that the girl was actually Laksmi. Narayana said, "I performed this operation only to remove your false ego and pride." Narada then fell flat at Narayana's feet and apologized. This incident became the cause of Lord Ramacandra's appearance.
This pastime was manifest by Krsna, or Narayana, through the agency of Yogamaya, only to give instructions to all jivas. We should not think that Narada fell from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, and was covered by maya. By the wish of Krsna, devotees can do anything to fulfill the desires of their Prabhu. We should understand that jivas cannot fall from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.
[Raghunatha Bhatta dasa:] Why does the living entity have minute independence?
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] He always has independence, whether he is here or there. This is because he is cit, not acit, and this is the symptom of cit-pardarta (the conscious entity). He always has independence, whether he is here in bondage, or there in the spiritual world.
[Raghunatha Bhatta dasa:] The living entity has a choice to go to Goloka, using his independence. If he has no sadhu-sanga at the tatastha region, how will he know what is maya and what is Krsna? How will he know where to go?
[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Krsna is very powerful, and He wants that all should come to Him and serve Him in the spiritual world. He never wants anyone to be separated from Him and be unhappy. He wants the jivas to desire to be with Him; so He wants to arrange anything favorable and for them to go to Him - as He did in Brhad Bhagavatamrtam. Krsna knows everything. If He sees that a jiva has some little desire there to serve Him, and he is sincere, He will arrange that he can go to the spiritual world and be with Him there. But each jiva is independent. If he misuses his independence, then he will go down to the material world. If he looks towards the spiritual world from the tatastha region he will go there by the help of Yogamaya, and if he looks towards the material world, he will come to the material world under the influence of Mayadevi.
[Endnote 1: Karanbdhi pare mayara nitya avasthiti / virajara pare paravyome nahi gati. The Viraja, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual world and material worlds. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky." (Cc. Mad. 20.269)
Transcriber: Raghunatha dasa Adhikari
Editors: Sundar Gopal dasa and Syamarani dasi
Typists: Premanidhi dasi and Radhika dasi