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Conversations in Mathura

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A108-AI

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55.jpgMathura, India,
April 17, 2000

[In Mathura, generally every day for about 15 minutes or a half-hour before Shrila Maharaja's 6.00pm class, he gives informal darasanas. The following conversations took place on April 17th.]

Conversation I

[Shyamarani dasi:] There is a statement in your Bhakti Tattva Viveka, which seems to be different from what you usually preach. It says; "Ones nistha intensifies and assumes the form of ruchi. The sadhaka within whom such ruchi has developed is called an uttama adhikari." This says that when one reaches the stage of ruchi (taste in devotional service) he is already an uttama adhikari.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes. We should try to reconcile all this. Ruci is a part of shuddha-sattva, and when shuddha-sattva comes, rati or bhava (the stage of spiritual emotion just prior to prema) manifests. The fraction of this rati is ruchi. In that case ruchi is also a kind of rati. When ruchi becomes more mature, then it is called asakti (attachment). Then when asakti is more condensed then it is still the same thing, but more condensed - it becomes rati. There is no difference. There is simply stages of maturity: the 1st stage, 2nd stage, 3rd stage, etc. When ruchi comes as a part of rati, then the devotee is uttama-adhikari uttama-kanishta.

[Shyamarani dasi:] When that ruchi is present in the stage of rati, then as a fraction of rati.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] You should know that ruchi begins in sraddha - in the form of sraddha. Only the names are different. In other words rati is there in the shape of sraddha, and ruchi is there in the shape of sraddha. But gradually it develops. Only the names are different. The name is changed but it is the same thing. Ruci first appears in sraddha and ultimately it comes towards the istadeva (the worshipable Deity - Radha-Krishna.) A person who has such thick ruchi has no taste for wordly desires and wordly things. He does not commit any aparadha (offenses). Nothing. At that time his chanting of the holy name is pure. As Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has explained in Siksastaka, such a person is always absorbed in Krishna. Therefore he may be called 'Maha-bhagavata'. But what class of bhagavata? There are are so many stages. He is called bhagavata, but.

[Shyamarani dasi:] Here it says, 'uttama adhikari.'

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Uttama adhikari here means uttama-kanishta. At the stage of ruchi one is uttama-kanishta. At the stage of asakti he becomes like an uttama-madhyama. Then, when rati comes, he becomes uttama-uttama. But uttama-uttama also has so many grades. When a person has prema, then he really becomes a maha-bhagavata.

[Shyamarani dasi:] I thought you had previously said that one begins his uttama stage at the point of shuddha-sattva or bhava.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] But shuddha-sattva does not begin at once. It begins from ruchi. We should reconcile it in this way.

[Ananta Krishna dasa:] Shrila Visvanatha Cakravatipada also says that uttama-madhyama is in asakti. So there is a little difference.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] No difference. You should try to reconcile it. It may be that you are not understanding fully. I know that you cannot understand. However, by doing bhajana - doing, doing, doing you can come to that stage. Don't try to understand through your intelligence. Try to understand through our Guru-varga (disciplic succsesion.) We should try to realize what our line of acaryas have written. I cannot be different from Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. What I am telling is his remanents. I try to reconcile Shri Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura, Shri Rupa Gosvami, Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and all other acaryas. They are in one line, but they may manifest their explanations in so many different words.

[Ananta Krishna dasa:] Should we then understand that they are speaking the same thing, but?

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] You should try to do more bhajana. Don't try to understand by mental speculation. Try to do bhajana and pray that you can advance.

[Ananta Krishna dasa:] So they are saying the same thing but from different angles?

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Yes. We are seeing it, and trying to understand it by so many angles of vision. All the angles are right. One person is telling that Krishna never told lies, but Yasodamaiya and all others like her tell that He did speak lies. What is the conclusion? You cannot understand. The understandings are from so many angles, but they are all true. Don't make mistakes in your writing - saying that Narayana Maharaja is telling one thing, Shrila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is telling something else, and Shrila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura and Rupa Gosvami are telling something else.

Conversation II

[Vraja-Mohini dasi:] I am your disciple from England, and its my birthday today.

[Brajanatha dasa:] Its her birthday. She wants some special mercy.

[After asking her a few questions, Shrila Maharaja took some flower petals from his garland and, gently tossing the petals on the top of her head, chanted: "Mangalam bhavatu kalyana bhavatu. Krishna bhakti bhavatu". She then showed Shrila Maharaja her 6" murti of Mahaprabhu.

[Vraja-Mohini dasi:] I have a murti of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I found Him in Puri. He's made from a siddha bakula tree. I had a feeling in my heart to get this murti.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] You want to put Him in your heart?

[Vraja-Mohini dasi:] Yes.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Then you should keep Him always. How will you put Him there? By an operation?

[Vraja-Mohini dasi:] I felt in my heart that I should have this murti.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] But on the next day you may give Him up. Chant more. Try to know who is Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and what are His moods. And try to reach those moods. From what has He been made?

[Vraja-Mohini dasi:] Siddha bakula tree.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Bakula tree? Mahaprabhu cannot be made of a bakula tree. He is transcendental. Is this (wood) transcendental?

[Vraja-Mohini dasi:] I don't know.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Try to chant Hare Krishna - the transcenderntal names. Have strong faith in the name and then everything will come. If you are worshiping the Deity for lakhs and lakhs of births, then one pure name will come. Try to go straight (By chanting you will be able to chant purely much quicker.)

Coversation III

[Shyamarani dasi:] I am not qualified to ask this question, but sometimes I need to know the answer because we are sending out your lecture transcriptions, and different devotees have different opinions as to what you mean. In Shrimati Radharani, is prema-vicitya in anuraga or madanakya mahabhava?

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Always. Everywhere.

[Shyamarani dasi:] Some devotees say it is only in the stage of anuraga.

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] Then you should listen to them; not me.

[Shyamarani dasi:] No. So, in Radharani, is prema-vicitya higher than divyonmada?

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] I cannot say this. But I can say that divyonmada and prema-vicitya in Vraja are more than in Dvaraka, and more than in Mathura - Radhika's prema-vicitya and divonmada are more than that of anyone else. That I can tell.

[Shyamarani dasi:] But when Radharani is in Uddhava-kyeri in divyonmada, is that higher, or is prema-vicitya in Vrindavana higher?

[Shrila Narayana Maharaja:] You are not understanding all this. Your question is wrong. In Radha-kunda She is always with Krishna. There She is always in madanakya mahabhava. That madanakya mahabhava contains everything - everything. And it is the highest of all moods. It is the last limit. It may be that in Uddhava-kyeri there is something of that. It maybe that in Prema sarovara, the highest prema-divyonmada, prema-vicitra - everything - is there. But Uddhava khyeri is not the highest, because there is seperation mood there. Seperation mood is not madana.

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